electric collar training?

I’ve been using the E-collar with my dogs for almost a year, also young dobermans, they’re awful! Read my last question! I started using the E-collar because we trained for agility (will get back to it when it warms up) and I need to be able to correct them without having a leash on. I LOVE them for recall. I have a Dogtra 202NCP Gold. It goes pretty high but isn’t the strongest one they supply. It has a half-mile range. It has made my dogs completely reliable off leash and that’s pretty much the only thing I use it for right now (except when I had to stealthily catch them trash digging). It also has a vibrate mode, which is all I use to get their attention, if they ignore me, I use a low e-stim, and increase it if they continue to ignore me ( I almost never have to use the e-stim though). I have gradually stopped using it most of the time, their recall is very close to 100% if not actually that, even without it now. My dogs know that if they ignore me there WILL be consequences. The trick to using it is, give the command (if he’s already ignoring COME, change the word, I use HERE) if he doesn’t react, slowly turn it higher until he does. When he turns towards you stop with the stim, and praise him like CRAZY. Start with using treats until he understands the whole idea then phase them out. First get him to come right to you, in front of you, then start making him sit when he’s in front of you (after he "gets it"). If you haven’t taught your dog to look you in the face for directions, do that with treats as well, you can hold a treat in front of you and bring it to your eyes, keep a treat in your other hand and hold his gaze for a few seconds then praise him and release him with a treat. Do this while sitting on the couch or doing whatever and it’s a GREAT thing to teach them. I like my dogs to come straight to me and sit in front of me, looking at me for further instructions. When your working on the recall, don’t let him get distracted, if he turns or sees something else or tries to turn around, correct him until he turns back around and continues towards you.

I also started the basics of recall (pretty much the same with the treats/sitting etc.) on a long line and pinch. We would walk, I would suddenly start taking a few steps backwards and give him the command, If he didn’t turn around I gave a pop correction until they came towards me, praising them. When he does what you want, like coming straight at you and sitting, release him with an OK!!! and play with him a second and start walking again. Do this over and over for about 10 minutes and he’ll start to "get it". Frequent, short training sessions benefit ALL training. I say, treat to teach – correct to proof (actually I stole that from another answerer, but it’s the perfect way of putting it).

THE MOST important thing is to NEVER EVER EVER, punish him when you catch him/or he finally comes after ignoring you. That may be your problem, he may have learned that COMING BACK is a bad thing. No matter how long it takes, or how frustrated/angry you are, ALWAYS give praise for him returning/you catching him, and try to make yourself project happy and excited, forget that he wasn’t listening. Then he will associate coming back with being an EXCELLENT thing, they can sense emotions so you will have to forget your mad and be glad instead. Also, yelling over and over will make the command word obsolete as well as your yelling, it creates the "Wah wah wah" of the adults in Charlie Brown. I give a command once, then a warning, then the command again and if still not listening a correction (with hold down) until they turn around, letting go and getting excited the SECOND they head back.

When phasing in the e-collar, ALWAYS do it in an enclosed area. Until he gets used to it, it may freak him out and make him run harder. That’s why it’s better to TEACH it with a pinch, rather than correct him for something he doesn’t understand. Corrections are ONLY for something already taught.

Sorry it was long, but I thought a thorough explanation of how I taught it would be better. Personally, the e-collar has been the best investment I’ve made in training my dogs.

Just thought I’d ADD: For those of you who nay-say properly using an e-collar, test one on yourself, like *I* have (as I do with any training tool) and you will understand it doesn’t SHOCK the dog. It’s not like an electric fence or hot wire or even a spark from an outlet. It is like the e-stimulus they use in physical therapy. It contracts the muscles and while a strange sensation it is not painful except on the very HIGHEST setting of the middle grade collars (which he should use) and the middle setting of strong collars (usually used for working/police dogs). On all but the highest setting it is mildly uncomfortable and an odd sensation. It’s meant to be a disruption, not a cruel electrocution, and when used properly in the right context is not cruel in the slightest.

Also, (sorry this is getting long) getting a QUALITY collar with the correct strength is key. I love the Dogtra collar model I have, they’re what works for my dogs without being to mild or too harsh. Using a cheapo can be either not enough or too strong. If you want to try out different brands, and strengths, call around to contact a TRADITIONAL obedience trainer who is experienced with them (after you’ve TAUGHT the recall command with a long line) and ask if you can try out different models/strengths to see what works for you and your dog. Many hunting clubs will also be willing to let you try it out. Either will also be a good place to test it out, most will have an fenced area where you can try it. I bought my collar at BassPro, but you can go to the dogtra website and call in an order.

For the person who said that their neighbors dog came from the same litter bla bla bla, I’ll guarantee that since you both had a dog from the same litter, they were from a backyard greeder, which could have made him mentally unstable to begin with, and that he wasn’t using it properly because he didn’t bother to utilize the resources pertaining to the training. I seriously doubt that even if he WASNT using it right that would make a dog "snap" and go insane….

Yet another add: Tom actually gave a really good explanation as well, I didn’t condition or proof my dogs with it, but he makes a good point and it’s probably a good idea for most dogs. Since your dog has already had one on though, you probably wont need that approach.

If Greekman gets to this Q, he’s the authority (in my opinion) for traditional obedience on this site. So listen to him…

David J, like that last little bit lol.

It probably won’t work. My uncle has a Field Lab about the same size and she runs right through the field. They figure out (really quickly) that if they keep going the pain will stop.

Spend the money on some real training and never, NEVER use a shock collar.

You don’t teach a dog to "come" with an e-collar. It will come back to haunt you. Do not let your dog off-leash where he can get away. I know people think it’s a wonderful thing if their dog will be off leash and just follow them anywhere, but it is soooo unsafe! No matter how well trained your dog is, you have no idea what can/will set them off. They may see a cat, or a squirrel, etc. If you really love your dog, it’s not worth the risk!

Do not use a shock collar. It is wrong and the dog does not even understand what is happening. It is cruel and I can not believe you are doing this to your companion!!!!

Frankie,

I just want to make sure I understand. You have a Doberman puppy who runs away when he’s not on the leash, so you want to shock him to teach him to mind you. Is that the gist of it?

First, shock collars are a last resort for hard-headed or very very unruly dogs. They are not for puppies doing what puppies do.

Second, if you know the puppy runs when not on leash, then leave him on the leash. It’s not very realistic to expect the dog to magically know to stay with you without the proper training.

Third, you say you’ve "trained the dog" yourself. Obviously, it’s not working. He’s already been attacked by another dog and still isn’t listening and your first instinct rather than to find a good trainer, is to zap him. That’s the wrong mentality.

Find a trainer who can help you. Zap collars will not teach your dog to come or to stay. And, they CERTAINLY should’t be used on a large breed puppy who hasn’t been trained properly.

Shock collars are NOT for training your dog.

Why not try keeping him on a leash? Get an extension leash and let him go away from you on it, then practice calling him back. When he has mastered the "recall" on his leash, take him to a park that allows dogs to be unleashed.

Excellent site from jayla, Only my personal opinion ( of which I’m entitled ) Yes they do work ( if used properly ) It’s ideal if you can find some one locale who has used one, bird dog people i find use them. But if not you must first be sure your dog understands FULLY what you mean when you call him ( the recall) once you are sure proceed to use the collar, use the command (making sure he has heard you ) if no response press once, it should have the desired effect. But buy a good quality collar with variable controls, which is where it sounds like you went wrong with the last one, also look at the distances covered by them.
No doubt Lot’s of flack coming my way, it seems you should buy a dog from the pound, have it neutered /spayed, not use a check chain or pronged collar and most of all never have an aggressive dog or the whole world will come to an end. ( sorry i could not help myself)

Best of Luck

I beg to differ with a lot of you because I first started training with an e-collar in the late 60s when the only one around was an "A1-80" that was admittedly about like a cattle prod strapped to a dogs neck. The advances in the technology since then are unbelievable.
First off, I normally don’t endorse any product over another, but in the case of e-collars the only ones I trust and will use are the Dogtra and the tri-Tronics. I use a tri-Tronics Pro-100.
Next, yes I do train with an E-collar. From the time a pup becomes big enough to carry it around I strap the collar on the dog every time we train. However it is never switched on so that it could be used until after the puppy is about 7 months old. At that time I start "collar conditioning", and by doing so "proof" the three basic commands starting with recall which was the last of the three taught. To proof recall, place the dog on a long lead, and as before give the command and immediately real the pup in. The the second time give the dog a low level "nick" (momentary correction) with the collar at the same time that you start to real the pup in. The idea is that the e-collar correction should exactly match the intensity of the long lead correction so that the both mean exactly the same thing to the dog. From this point make an e-collar correction about every fourth time the dog is given the recall command and slowly increase the frequency of the e-collar corrections while at the same time decreasing the frequency of the long lead corrections. Remember that making the correction has absolutely nothing to do with the dog doing it right or wrong. When collar conditioning you would then proof the stationary (sit) command, and last the send (I use "kennel" and "place") commands.
The premise is that it is paramount that the dog understands what an e-collar correction means before it is just used. Otherwise you will have a bolting problem that you may never get past.
The irony is that even tho’ I continue to put the collar on the dogs every time we train, it has probably been about 2 years since I actually had to make a correction. The reason they always have it on is so that they don’t become "collar wise".

Greetings,
Before using any equipment that punishes, you should do some homework on how it works. The following website will inform you as to the many reasons not to use a shock collar. Their are many of the countries formost behavior experts on this site, as well as a trainer that uses shock collars. It’s always best to be informed. http://www.hollysden.com/say-no-to-shock-collars.htm

I have used the Dogtra as well as the Tri-tronics collars — have a nice one from Petco/smart as well.. forget the name but there is only one that is decent – yellow and black control — anyway, but it is just as well to order a Dogtra or Tri-tronics if you have the time to wait for it… I know the tri-tronics comes with a decent video that will help you maybe. I hardly use the collars except for safety sake as I have trained dogs for decades and don’t train them to ignore me in the first place, which is sort of what you have done already as the dog knows you don’t have any control over it when he is away from you — but spilt milk… At nine months, the dog is not reliably trained and you should never allow him off lead until he is or basically he learns you have no control… I know and have trained a reliable recall with the ecollar and it works fine I guess — not my preferable technique but it is useful. The only issue is if you don’t have the knowledge to train the dog reliably in the first place, the odds are you will only sort of train the ecollar half-way as well… Novice trainers tend to do a lot of short cutting and making assumptions, like the dog is ‘trained’ when it isn’t at all – as evidenced by the fact that it will not obey you when you are not attached to it… if it had a reliable down or sit or heel, then it wouldn’t be an issue the running thing… as all you would need to do is give it a down command when it is out running and guess what – he would drop like a rock! None of the training you have done is yet reliable but you can do the recall with an ecollar if you wish — but it would really be better to actually train the dog initially and then use the ecollar as a deterent to disobedience once the dog actually knows and does what he is supposed to do. I will say, I have a Yugoslavian b*tch and she is dumb as a box of rocks for a Doberman. I have had Dobermans all my life and am used to intelligent dogs but she is more like a GSD or something like that — sort of a rote dog but not too bright on the Doberman scale but she does have a reliable recall and hasn’t required an ecollar to train it as such…

Frankly, you need to train him better — you can get an ecollar but the dog isn’t trained and while it might be okay to train him by yourself, that isn’t usually wise. Having trained for fifty years in obedience as well as schutzhund, I can say that going it alone is no the way to go… the dog will be semi-reliable once you have trained it and then when it has five other dogs around, you will be again given the Doberman bird

Find a good training class in your area and learn to better train the dog — they likely won’t be able to work with you on the ecollar but if you can learn better at obedience training you really shouldn’t need it. If you feel some compulsion to get and use one though, see about finding a good schutzhund club and listen to about half of what they say (it is best to have some obedience training under your belt though – non-compulsive/ train in drive stuff before heading out into a sport club atmosphere or it could get weird. Most sport clubs are fine at training GSDs but don’t have a clue how to train Dobermans and they are not at all the same breed or even close! Not knowing where you are I can’t give any recommendations but just check out the DVG or USA sites to see if there are any sport clubs and see about finding a local (good) obedience class.

add: Goodness but that tlctreec… trainer sure has little experience with Dobermans… they are NOT ‘hard headed’ at all! They are the easiest to train dogs out there — having trained just about every breed and mix for decades I can say that with no hesitation! They can easily train their owners as well but for the most part they are extreeeeemly easy to train and isn’t that the guy that thinks they won’t ‘take commands from kids’ — wonder why I was fully capable of training Dobermans when I was six years old if that be true?? They are not hard headed dear — they actually are very easy to train – the only thing I have noticed that might be a little odd to some trianers is they tend to not be tolerant of ‘unfair’ training techniques — the ‘correct them three times into it’ sort of thing … they will usually pick it up after the first or second time and are pissy about being corrected AS they are doing it correctly… you have to be capable of actually reading a dog and not making silly assumptions or this sort of training will backfire on you. Works for some dogs but not for most Dobermans, which could be why many ‘trainers’ have a hard time training them ..

ADD: Goodness but there is a lot of ignorance about both training and ecollars on this question!! They are not ‘torture’ devices and don’t make a dog ‘snap’ and be crazy… IF, like ANY training device or technique, they are used properly they can be very effective and should NEVER hurt the dog… if an idiot uses a buckle collar incorrectly they can do more harm! Please, find you a decent club/trainer and don’t rely on the stupids on the internet to teach you anything… one on one so you can learn to better train the dog and use various techniques… he really isn’t trained yet and if you have used an ecollar and screwed it up already, then you really need some assistance by someone who knows what they are doing… see if you can find someone who trained detection dogs or something like that if you don’t have a sport or good obedience trainer nearby… I know the person who taught me the most about using an ecollar was a detection dog trainer and we all know how crazy and tortured those guys are

Good choice

The e-collar is a great tool, but you have to remember, it is just a tool, and by itself is of no value. I can go to Home Depot and buy the best/most expensive tools on the market, but i am still a horrible wood worker.

You need to find a good e-collar trainer and talk to them, don’t try to do it yourself.

I have been doing e-collar training professionally for 5 years, and while i have never been unsuccessful in getting the client what he/she wants, my technique is still evolving as I get better and better and learn more and more.

Anyone who says they have been doing it the same way for x years should be avoided, as you can not help but to learn/improve all the time, IF YOU ARE PAYING ATTENTION.

At a minimum, your timing and ability to read a dog improves.

I have a money-back guarantee on my e-collar training, and any good trainer should be able to offer you the same.

The E-collar is a great tool when used properly, but can be just as bad when used incorrectly.

Mark